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March 14, 2023

S02E09 - Incident Response at 36,000 Feet

S02E09 - Incident Response at 36,000 Feet

On this episode, our third last of Season 2...or maybe second last, we really don't know yet..are you confused as we are? Ok. Let's try this. On this LAST-ISH episode of Season 2 we talk about Incident Response in the context of a dramatic event that recently occurred Sunday, March 5th, on United Flight 2609 from Boston to Los Angeles.  

One of the co-hosts of this podcast was involved in the attempted de-escalation and eventual tackling and subduing of a passenger with a reported history of mental health problems who tried to open a door midflight and attack a flight attendant.  

We talk about how Incident Response training and experience played a crucial role in Jason's ability to remain calm, work as part of a team and assist in containing the individual.  


Intro [00:00:05] The views expressed by Paul during this podcast are his alone and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions or positions of his employer. The views expressed by Jason Wait, do really? This is what you want me to read? Okay. The views expressed by Jason are his alone and frequently do not necessarily reflect reality. His opinions are often annoying, scattershot in their application, and can resemble more of a Virginia wall short story than a cohesive argument. He is currently undergoing therapy and rewatching Westworld Season three to resolve his storytelling issues. 


Jason [00:00:30] Welcome to season two of F-Sides, the annoyingly award lacking number one cybersecurity podcast, according to Muscle Car Poetry magazine and the most money losing not for profit venture. Probably the start of this side of starting an airline. 


Paul [00:00:46] And F sides focuses on the human side of cybersecurity that we see happening all around us. I'll get a voice coach or something. 


Jason [00:00:59] We're going to bring in a voice actor to record that. Anyways, this app, this this podcast is where Paul and I discuss how to move the elephant in cybersecurity, in I.T. and work life, the universe, and everywhere. The elephant represents the human side of cybersecurity. 


Paul [00:01:14] And so this week we have a special episode, a very special episode of Episodes. Both of our listeners may have heard about the recent incident on Flight United or sorry, United Flight 2609 from Los Angeles to Boston earlier this week. And it's March 11th now. So the incident happened earlier this week. I know one of the passengers personally and we happened to have that person on today's podcast. So without further ado, here's one of the passengers. So, Jason, I got a text on Monday. Hey, Jason. Very good. I got a text. 


Jason [00:01:51] After my flight to Boston. 


Paul [00:01:53] After your flight to Boston. You know, I got a text from you on Monday and I found out you're on the flight before it even hit the news. You know, you had shared, you know, some some minor, very nonchalantly, some minor details. And then the next day, I get I start to see some of these news reports. And, you know, in the video. 


Jason [00:02:11] It was the text was a you will believe. Yeah, I. What does that mean? Like get check this out. Yeah. When I read. 


Paul [00:02:19] It, it's like, oh, okay, maybe a small little, you know, like somebody, you know, a minor thing. But, you know, when you see the video, it was really shocking. So could you briefly, because I'm sure a lot of people have seen the video and so forth. But, you know, it's always good to hear firsthand. Now, can you share a little bit of your perspective of what happened? Yeah. 


Jason [00:02:37] Yeah, I'll keep it short. I keep my story because, again, Google Flight 2609, Boston, Los Angeles, you can videos out there. You can see what happens for yourself. But my perspective was, you know, just every other flight is about 4 hours in. Got up to use the restroom I heard that door was a was attempted to have been opened from the flight attendants while I was in the back helping myself to some relief, sat back down and out of not out of nowhere, but the flight attendant comes up to the gentleman sitting in front of me in the middle seat in the row in front of me, and asked him if he had. Hey. Very, very calmly and professionally. Funny, if you think about it now. Hey, did you happen to try to open a door? It was kind of like in that town. And you denied it and started raising his voice and was saying you have security cameras. And it started escalating really fast. And that's when, you know, I had my headphones in and I went above my headphone volume because I was watching the flight attendants talk to him, took my headphones out and started paying attention what was going on? Started raising his voice, definitely unstable, was saying things about biblical references. And then a very brave woman, you know, as he's raising his voice more and more, starting to scare passengers, you know, to be honest, is kind of scaring me. A very brave woman for a couple of those back came up and started talking to him to try to get him to calm down. And at that point, I started to try to get his attention away from her by making eye contact and talking to him, trying to calm him down. Hey, you know, there's a lot of people that are scared on this flight. You might want to maybe we can just bring it down a couple of notches. And as soon as I had an opportunity, I read this through some negotiation tactics to get on a first name basis with them. So I you know, there was an opportunity for me to go say, Oh, hey, I'm Jason, you know, what's your name? And that's I think we all know from the video his name is Balthasar. That didn't help because he then told me to shut up as he was getting angrier and angrier, not necessarily from what I was saying just from him. And something something was getting he was getting angry about. And he started threatening the passengers, threatening he was going to kill every man on board. And it was about the time, you know. So this was where I was just sort of monitoring what's going on. He was just standing in his place. So there wasn't a physical threat to anybody. It was just somebody being very loud, obnoxious. The point that he it exited into the aisle and said the statement, well, since I'm taking over this plane, that's when Awesome gentleman to my left name, Jeff. Stood up and came towards him. I immediately got out and followed Jeff and in a blur of a flurry of seconds, he rushed at the flight attendant up towards the front of the plane. What I saw was like he was stabbing them. And Jeff and I both I was right behind Jeff, rushed up and tackled him. I grabbed the sort of his upper torso and his arm. Jeff was grabbing his midsection and we end up doing them and throwing down to the floor. At that point, about three or four other brave guys jumped in and helped us and pretty crazy took a while to subdue him. He's really strong guy. Like, it was not easy. I can appreciate what it's what what it must be like for a lot of people that are in that situation in law enforcement. But it was it was tough. It took us about a good 10 to 15 minutes to get him subdued and to zip tie him so that he couldn't harm anybody else or himself. 


Paul [00:05:49] Yeah, everyone was okay. Like, that's the first question, right? I mean, I know you had some minor. 


Jason [00:05:55] I believe the flight attendant is okay. So it's just a matter of everything. Everything was okay. It was still a very scary and representative. What really, you know, representative of what really may have happened more than anything. Like, what if he had a more dangerous weapon that would have inflicted more damage than a blunt spoon or a broken off spoon? You know the number of things anyways. Yeah. 


Paul [00:06:18] Yeah. I mean, I go through all of those scenarios, but yeah, that's just that's, you know, that's definitely a, an eventful flight, right. So that, you know. 


Jason [00:06:27] Yes, that's a good way. It was very eventful. 


Paul [00:06:29] Wow. Yeah. And again, I'm glad you're and you're safe and everybody is safe. And, you know, so again, I know that you had some minor injuries, but, you know, it's concerning what could have happened. Yeah. So well, that well, you know, and we don't want to spend too much time on on the the flights specifically. Right. I know that, you know, the thing you and I talked about afterwards, which, by the way, you were remarkably calm the whole time and very, very nonchalant. Not nonchalant is not the right word. You're very low key about it. So that's something I've always respected about you, Jason. So, I mean, you know that you're not out there trying to, you know, aggrandize and, you know, make a big deal, but it it is kind of a big deal. But the other thing I wanted to chat with you about is, you know, incident response, because within cybersecurity, Right. That's a high stress situation, not as high stress as you just went through. Right. Because typically it's not life and death, you know, But, you know, it is it is a high stress situation. So, you know, I want to chat with you a little bit about that. So, you know, the first question that came to my mind after, are you safe? Is everybody on the plane safe is how did you identify that situation and and kind of determine what action to take? Because, you know, you see the video, some people took video, some people kind of, you know, leaned back and stayed out of the fray. Right. And by the way, no judgment on anybody. Right. You never know how you're going to react on that. And you just happened to have a conversation with the person and then stand up. So now, how did you how do you assess the situation, determine what to do? 


Jason [00:07:59] Yeah, this is you know, this is such a great topic for our podcast because it has so many parallels to cybersecurity incident response, which, to be honest, has played a big role in how I react and why I reacted the way I did. You know, the first step is situational awareness. Just being aware of your surroundings, even with headphones in, you know, I'm always watching probably not as much as you with your military background. And out of the two of us, Paul is the more paranoid person with I won't sit with my boss. 


Paul [00:08:24] I agree with that. Yeah, I agree with that. 


Jason [00:08:26] But but I am aware of things in my own in my own right, too. You know, one of the things you mentioned, like other people not reacting, which is true, you watch the video, people have phones in and you know, it's it's it's we become numb, in my opinion, to the mental health issues this country is going through. How many times do I walk down the streets of L.A. and a guy is just shouting at the top of his lungs to himself and he's obviously. My opinion is that he's mentally unwell. Somebody is going to be doing that. You know, they're homeless and we've just become immune to it. And I think that was one of these situations where people are just, oh, it's another person just being loud and obnoxious and I'm just going to go about my day and not intervene or not do something that it's all talk. I think that's what the assessment was from most people. That was my assessment too, was guys just talking like he's just being loud, obnoxious flight attendant will come and do what they're trained to do and talk him down. And if he's upset about not having Chardonnay because all they have is Sauvignon Blanc, whatever he was upset about. I think that's what everybody was assuming, was he was just loud, obnoxious, and then he would calm down. 


Paul [00:09:27] Yeah. 


Jason [00:09:28] So that's. So it really wasn't, you know, to be honest, it wasn't stressful. It wasn't stressful. Even through it, I wasn't stress. 


Paul [00:09:33] Really. That's interesting. Hear. So yeah, let's dive into that a little bit. So sorry. You go ahead, Jason. 


Jason [00:09:39] Yeah, well, even when I, when I started engaging them, I was just. I was thinking, okay, you know, think back to my training in negotiations. And to be honest, it was such a great time in my training in cybersecurity incident responses, meaning remaining calm under pressure. How do I connect with this guy? How do I empathize with them? That's a leadership teaching tool is when someone, you know, I get in meetings and people are upset if you want to, hey, let's empathize. Let's try to understand this is just two human beings or a group of human beings talking. And that was my goal with with engaging them was I have a big smile on my face. Hey, man. Yeah, I feel for you. I was trying to get along and like, Hey, I understand what you're going through. You know, that's that's got to be rough, man. That's got to be rough. And, you know, and then when he's more times, he's raising his voice, trying to get him to empathize with others by saying, now there's a lot of because he was really big about this idea of hurting men that were hurting women. So I think he was protective of women in his mom. You know, there's a lot of women and children on this plane. You might be scared right now. Let's try to tone it down a little bit or just, you know. 


Paul [00:10:38] I can work up. Yeah. What compelled you to engage was, is that de-escalation like, okay, hey, you know, I want to de-escalate the situation, do my part. 


Jason [00:10:45] You know, it was it was the protective instinct. So it was me wanting to protect the woman, the very brave woman I mentioned earlier that came in and first first started talking to him. That's when I went, okay, she can't be the only one and brave for her because, you know, maybe I may not have said anything if she hadn't come up. And I felt that protective nature, if he would have just kept babbling, but somebody would have probably said something and then I would have felt like stepping in. So it was a chain reaction and it was a chain reaction for everybody. I think that's how what caused it was her initial that I think said, okay, we should try to confront this person as a group in some way, or she did us individually and then people started helping out. 


Paul [00:11:23] But that's interesting because with incidents you typically will have somebody who, you know, when there's when there's not leadership, somebody will take the mantle of leadership and, you know, and that will compel others to want to participate and join in. And you'll start to see the organization kind of flow behind the leader, you know, And so it sounds like that's kind of, you know, you saw somebody take action. You were taking action, too, right? But you saw someone take physical action, like in the walking in the aisle and trying to, you know, engage and talk. And that compelled you. So, you know what? You know, the thing that's interesting me is when I look at the video, you know, I see you get up immediately, Right. And that's that, you know, just like it's a response. You you made a decision to do something, you know, for incident response. It could be I'm going to make a decision to shut the network down or I'm going to make a decision to not shut that out like there's a decision we're making. 


Jason [00:12:15] So no doubt on what that phase of incident response. Yeah, it's you know, I do it this is all part of my podcast is the first the first phase is is is an analysis. Analyze what the heck is going on in this incident, whether it's a cybersecurity incidents or this real world analysis. That's what I was doing. I was analyzing the situation. What's going on? Is he a threat? Is he not a threat? Okay. He's a little bit of a threat. Let me try to engage and get a sense of what's going on and calm it down and see if that's the analysis and analyzing. And as soon as it became and this could happen in a cybersecurity incident, that something bad is going to happen to our systems, The people on the plane, the plane itself, the next step you do is containment. That's an incident response to contain the what's happening as best you can. And that was the same thing with this. As soon as he got up and went to the plane, followed the followed the guy, Jeff, we both worked on containment. Let's restrict his movement, get him down so that he can't do further harm. You know, the focus was for that good. 5 to 10 minutes was on containment. That's the priority of any incident response. After you get the analysis staged, once you figure what bad is, what bad is happening, you focus on containment. 


Paul [00:13:22] Yeah, because you I mean, the thing I noticed was you you changed you changed your responses based off of the situation. Right. Which is something you see. And instead of response, sometimes people will commit to a course of action and stay on that course of action, even when environmental factors or other information come in that say, Hey, maybe you need to adjust or whatnot. 


Jason [00:13:43] So yeah, it is that that loop, that feedback loop to analysis analysis will change. Containment phases may change what you're containing. It may change. But yeah, it's and that's, you know, to me that sounds really cheesy saying cybersecurity incident response, you know, help me with this but it absolutely did like it's the training, the stress I been in and the being able to think smart during an incident. You know not all of us are fortunate enough to you know, to do that. You've had military training, so you've had a leg up for me. I've never I don't have any law enforcement training and I'm having military training, to be honest. The only training I have for stuff like this is in cybersecurity here. 


Paul [00:14:20] So I would agree, right. You can have everything you do impacts every other thing you do. Right. So. You're always thinking about, like, how do I react to stress situations? And that's on your mind. It will help you, right? So, you know, so that. 


Jason [00:14:34] It's. 


Paul [00:14:35] Practical. 


Jason [00:14:36] Good practice, practice, practice. Right? Yeah. That's why we talk about cybersecurity as a response. This idea of tabletop exercises. Yeah, which may sound like it almost is as silly as a bunch of people sitting around playing Dungeons and Dragons because you're role playing this event of something bad happening to your company and happening to your systems. But it is so important because that's sometimes the only practice you're going to get. And you told me what to what is the term in the military when you're training train like you fight? 


Paul [00:15:00] Oh yeah. So yeah, so in the military it's, you know train in the conditions that you expect to conduct operations in, Right. So if it's raining outside, you don't stop operations, you keep going or you know, you if you're in the field and you know you, you don't have flushing toilets and running water. Right. You deal with what you got. So, yeah, one thing I was thinking about, Jason, is, you know, how did you manage stress in that situation? 


Jason [00:15:28] Yeah. 


Paul [00:15:29] And you weren't consciously thinking about it. I know. You were like, okay, I'm not sure I do. I do this and that, but how do you think, you know, stress? 


Jason [00:15:36] I have an idea of it. You'd have to probably dissect my brain to figure it out. But it goes back to the incident response training. So the last fight I was in was like in the sixth grade. I'm not joking. Like in honestly, if you're you know, unless you have anger management issues or you're the unluckiest bar patron in the world getting in bar fight or getting advice, this isn't something a normal adult male should be faced with, right? Or maybe you're training. Is Jake Gyllenhaal stunt double in the new Road house movie but I haven't you know don't get in fights I'm a big dude. Take care of myself. I'm quiet. I'm nice. Stuff just doesn't happen like this. I don't have this training of how to have a physical altercation with someone. But absolutely, I absolutely believe it's my cybersecurity incident response. What I've been through, I've been through that. I've been through incidents. I've been through like, you know, stressful situations where things are happening at a fast pace is a fear of the unknown. You don't know what's going on. You've got a lot of stuff going on at once. And it's to be honest, incidents to me were I was probably more stressed out in cybersecurity incidents that I was this incidents but it absolutely is and training and an incident response that helped me here. 


Paul [00:16:44] Now so. 


Jason [00:16:45] I'm not joking about that. 


Paul [00:16:46] Yeah why do you think you're more mean? I have a thought, but why do you think you were less stressed? Was it because the time frame was so compressed that you didn't have time to think and be stressed? 


Jason [00:16:58] So yeah, that's true. Like, you know, a lot of people say, Oh, I would you know, you listen to the commentators on Instagram and even some of the Comedy Central's The Daily Show was like, Oh, you know, we had a spoon. Like, I didn't even know he had a weapon. It what it was the it was him doing the stabbing motion at the flight attendant that raised that like was, okay, that's really bad. Not only were we going towards him, I didn't know I'm going to tackle him until I saw that stabbing motion and I didn't know he had a weapon or not. So, no, it wasn't like it was and was just it was almost matter of fact. Okay, here's what's happening. Here's what I need to do. Here's what happening. Here's what I mean. And, you know, you ask about like the calm part again, it's that putting yourself in stressful situations will help you remain calm. It's like you said, train like you fight. This goes on with cybersecurity incident response when you're doing a table top. And if you're if you're lucky enough to get in on one, if you're a cybersecurity practitioner or sometimes you'll work at h.R. And you'll be invited to one where you work in finance and you'll be invited to one. Take it as real as you can. You know, you role play in your own head to put yourself as close to that stressful situation. The more realistic you can get in your head, the better that table top is going to be. I have a training simulation I do with all my teams. It's a simulation of climbing Mount Everest, and it's a training civilization about leadership. It's actually fantastic and nobody wants to know about it. Hit me up. It's one of the best. Like leadership training and team management and team trainings you can do virtually as a team climb Mount Everest. And it works so great when you lose yourself in it, when you imagine, All right, people, I've had people dress up, I'm going to bring my little ice pack and we're going to go. 


Paul [00:18:31] Kind of like, don't really get dragged this way. 


Jason [00:18:33] Yeah, Yeah. Because if nothing is at stake, you know, if it's all just a video game, you know, think about video. If you play video games, see how much you like, you know, your heart races, your emails, you're into it. So the more you can immerse yourself into the tabletop, the more prepared you're going to be, because it will simulate a stressful situation. And I absolutely believe the reason why I didn't panic and stress out and faint was because of my cybersecurity cert response training over the years and the instance I've been in. 


Paul [00:18:59] Well, one thing that people often forget about in incidents is coming down after the incident, the recovery portion. So how did you come down from that? 


Jason [00:19:08] Actually, there was there was an analogy before that. There was a step before the recovery. So it starts with, you know, the analysis. Well, preparation is make sure you're prepared, which is having a plan. Then there is the analysis. When the incidents first starts and you're getting all the data gathering that is containment, then there's eradication and that's ensuring that whatever whatever happened can't happen more or spread. It's a little elusive analogy here, but I think we actually did that after we had him contained to pinned to the ground. We went through his pockets to remove any weapons or anything else he may have had that could have harmed someone. And to me, that was kind of that eradication phase where, all right, you've got it contained, He said, Let's make sure there's nothing more bad that can happen from this initial incident that we've contained. And that was the everybody going through his pockets, handing it over to the flight attendant so he could gather it up for evidence. Later we found some stuff on him and they go grab this out, grab this out. And that was that eradication phase. And then the recovery phase was you're talking about his or for me, it was probably a couple of glasses of wine that night. But getting. 


Paul [00:20:05] Yeah well I was just say you seemed very cognizant when we were talking or when you're texting me so but yeah I mean recovery even after an incident people don't think the recovery portion and by the way in recovery includes gathering information understanding what happened so that you can learn from it. Lessons learned. Now I'm in an information security. It's you know, you need that more probably than this because hopefully you never have this type of situation again. 


Jason [00:20:32] But you do it. You do you you do do it. In this, I found myself doing that. What would I have done different? Absolutely. I was questioning that maybe I should have gotten up sooner. What if I if I had engaged him earlier, if I said something different? Yeah, absolutely. And that's you know, it's almost human nature, right? We always look back at our interactions and think, Oh, what could I have done differently? That is the recovery phase. Is that after action report? That's a military term, correct? 


Paul [00:20:59] After action used often? Yes. That is the term for I think a lot of people use it besides military. But yeah. 


Jason [00:21:04] I call them that. You know, they're called retro sometimes for spreads. This idea of like, look, I'll sit around and talk about we have this incident, let's see, how did it go? What did we do right? What did we do wrong? What can we do better? And I did that definitely myself in the situation and thought like, all right, how could I change situation? For one, you know, communication was key for the team. So they're while this wouldn't have happened if everyone didn't act together, I want to be clear on that. Like it was not me. It wasn't the guy next to me. It wasn't the brave one to my left. It was all of us together acting as a team. I want to give a quote to. Okay, so I'm a Star Trek guy and a Star Wars guy. 


Paul [00:21:45] No, really. That's coincidentally. 


Jason [00:21:47] Literally coincidentally, There's this fantastic quote that sums up what happened here on Picard. Season three was two nights ago. The latest episode. You're only ever You're only really ever as good as those around you. Yeah, I was like, What? Timing for this quote of Picard for you to come out, because that is exactly what happened in the situation. We were all because we worked as a team and work together. That was what allowed us to subdue and take control of the situation. Not not one of us could have done anything on our own. 


Paul [00:22:17] Well, that's interesting because it's in our response same way. It's not just security. It's your partners in operations. It's leadership making decisions. 


Jason [00:22:24] Now, imagine, imagine if we were able to train ahead of time and even just one. Hey. Okay, everybody, let's walk through. If somebody does this allow, the response would have been even. I mean, it was great as it was. But imagine we probably could have de-escalated or done something before even, you know, attack the flight attendant if we had even just a little bit of training as a team. So again, that importance of like why tabletops and why training, maybe you're not having incidents, but at least doing training, pretending that you're having incidents in the table. 


Paul [00:22:52] Hobbies Crucial Bonino I'm a big advocate for top, so you know, that's good to hear that, you know, that type of training helped you as well. And you know, it's helped me over my career as well, so. Well, let's see what what would you leave us with, Jason? Like as we're kind of wrapping up here? Like what what wisdom would you in part on a scale, what would you say? Like, I mean, you went through a lot in this week, so what's your thoughts? 


Jason [00:23:19] Man Nothing beats being in a fire to be prepared for a fire. And if you can't be in the fire, a feel for cybersecurity isn't a response. Maybe things are slow at your company and just know you're great because there's no real incidents. You're running a great program and just nothing ever happens, which is a good thing, not a bad thing if you. 


Paul [00:23:38] Work on a. 


Jason [00:23:38] Security, but you want to be prepared when it does and if and when it does so. Train, train, train, practice, practice, practice. Because if we all say we don't even say if anymore, say when you're going to get breached, when you're going to get hacked, when something bad is going to happen, the better prepared you are, the more calm you're going to be facing it, the better you're going to have, better outcome you're going to have for the incident. 


Paul [00:24:01] Great. Well. 


Jason [00:24:02] And you know, I want to. But before we go, there's you you almost got onto it is the importance of communication during. 


Paul [00:24:08] Oh, yeah. So yeah. 


Jason [00:24:10] So you know, we obviously were not talking to each other until but as soon as he was on the ground or in the containment phase, we were talking, I was saying, you'll even hear me on the video. I got this one. I got his arm, you know, intoning that. All right, everybody in, you know, my messaging was everybody grab a limb. We got five of us. I can easily hold down an arm by myself, holding him down by myself, not so much. But if we separate our duties, that was the intent. And it was we were talking the entire time to each other. And his left arm. He's moving here. Get this. Oh, okay. Who's got the. Who's got the zip ties? Go get the zip ties. We got the zip ties are coming. His legs move and grab his left leg. Move this. And we were talking as a team and communicating. That is absolutely critical during an incident. When have you ever been on an insert? I don't know if in your experience you have because you run great teams, but I've come into teams where it's crickets and I'll be for 10 minutes. 


Paul [00:25:00] Oh, yeah, yeah. No, that's that's. 


Jason [00:25:02] A bad incident response. You want continuous chatter, even if it's just saying, Yeah, I'm still working through this. Yo yo, as somebody running it, you're going to be okay. You're working on this, you're working on this, you're working on this, getting continuous status. Even if you're just somebody is doing an analysis in a log file every 5 minutes, chirping English, still working on the log file analysis. Like you want that chatter, you want that continuous communication. And the worst for incident response is not communicating and not talking. 


Paul [00:25:28] Agreed and and coherent communication. Right. Because that's the other thing. Under stress situations, you can lose your coherency. You know, when you do first day training, you know, they always say don't don't yell, someone call nine, 911. Right. Or whatever you saying. You know, they say you point at somebody and say, call 911, because in stress situations people would accidentally call. I'm like, look at the phone. And they're smart people. They would just be, Where's the 11? Right? Because again, your mind your your mind's not operating in the way it normally does because you're under stress. So it's great that you had, you know, flight of people who are able to communicate effectively, handle stress and manage stress effectively. 


Jason [00:26:11] So that's critical. You know, another thing I do on our incidents is I actually try to as much as I can because our podcast has some humor in it. They don't always hit, but I do that three incidents is covers it, keep it, keep it light, keep it so people aren't stressed out like the world is ending or the company is going to go up in flames. It's like, Hey man, this is just an everyday exercise. How you do it, You do it. Okay, take pause. You know, go get a coffee, make sure you use a liter or even as just if you're not the leader, you're on the team messaging that continuous. Everything's okay. Everything's going to be fine. We're just doing what we do, you know, and maintaining that calm presence to keep people from being, Oh, I got to get this out. I got to get this out. 


Paul [00:26:50] Yeah. Okay. Well, you you can't be under stress all the time either, right? Even even in the military where you train for it, it's like you have to have rest and recreation. 


Jason [00:26:59] You have to leave. 


Paul [00:27:00] The field of battle, you know, in recovery. So just like this. 


Jason [00:27:06] The an extra couple of minutes of breathing and an extra five or 10 minutes to take a break is not going to be the end all, be all. And yeah, know I got the executive asking me the VP needs this right away. You know what the VP He can wait. 


Paul [00:27:17] Yeah, he can. 


Jason [00:27:18] You can chill out for five or 10 minutes and that's, you know, this your executives, your CSOs job or whoever your job is to interface with the executives, to tell them to say, we're working on it. We got this. I'll let you know as soon as we can. And, you know, take that pressure off the Internet team and nothing ever needs to be done. That fast. We're going to be stressed about the speed at which you need to operate. 


Paul [00:27:38] But a lot of we should actually do a podcast Season three on tabletops and incident response. But, you know, one of the things with that is if you set expectations, say, hey, we'll get you an update in an hour, right? Then people back off, right? Once they understand what their what the requirements are, what you're going to do, you know, it helps. Right. Like you said in that situation, hey, I got this. I need who's going to go get this right? Like it was clear who would need to do what so Well, good. Well, you wanted to talk about this. We for the for the viewers of our podcast, who are especially watchful, you may have noticed that we've only done nine episodes this season. And we also were supposed to do I Should answers. 


Jason [00:28:22] That we were going to do eight and Survive. Last of US outdid us by one episode, so we had to match. We did you nine, we're going to do nine. So we're doing nine. Are we doing a ten? What do you think? 


Paul [00:28:33] Well, our season coming up, so maybe we do one from there or maybe we start season three from there. We'll see from a reflection. 


Jason [00:28:41] Yeah, I have strong opinions on RSA. I haven't been in so long. I'm excited to go because I want to change and it's actually exciting or it's just a mind numbing experience. We'll see. Yeah, I think. I think I just I just made the decision. We're going to do one. We are at season three and I reflect. We should just. 


Paul [00:28:56] We should just do one because I haven't been asking for like five years. So where are you going? 


Jason [00:29:01] Because I'm going to suspend. 


Paul [00:29:03] Yeah, it's just for you and I'm going to be wearing this shirt the whole time. I'm not going to change it. Sure, we've got. 


Jason [00:29:10] A coffee stain going on it to see that you haven't changed it. 


Paul [00:29:14] Oh, yeah. No, I had a new coffee saying like, this is one day. This is too right. So it's clear what that builds up. 


Jason [00:29:20] Nice. 


Paul [00:29:21] So the you the viewer questions, you wanted to address that when we talked earlier. Yeah. So. 


Jason [00:29:27] So our two listeners out there have submitted some questions and we're at this time we don't have enough of a bank to to do a full episode so we might get to them in season three. So anyone who did submit a question, we're working on it. We have our back office. I have my people talking to Paul's people, they're talking to each other. We've got activity audit and we're going to look at the questions, but unfortunately we will not be actually reading the questions out on this season. 


Paul [00:29:51] Well, hey, with that, I think we are at the end of our podcast. So Jason, you usually take us out. So give us something. 


Jason [00:29:59] Oh, I do. 


Paul [00:30:00] What's the. Yeah, I'm not making that up now. Jason Well, because I don't want to do it up. 


Jason [00:30:06] But fly the friendly skies. Flying is still the safest form of transportation. It's safer than driving a car. Safer the trains lately, especially at the news. 


Paul [00:30:15] But yeah, yeah, that's. 


Jason [00:30:17] Don't be afraid to fly. And this was not something that, in my opinion, really is hard to prevent. You know, just some people are going to go crazy and just happens you know there was. Yeah. So. All right, keep flying. Be safe out there. 


Paul [00:30:32] Well, thanks, everyone. We will see you. Probably season three, maybe episode ten of season two. Jason and I will figure it out. 


Jason [00:30:40] So many things on the planet, how organized we are. 


Paul [00:30:43] This is this is super organized. So. All right, everyone, thank you. 


Jason [00:30:48] He's there a in.