S01E02 - Why Presentation is Everything with Krislam Chin

Jason Loomis [00:00:10] Hello and welcome to F-Sides

Paul Love [00:00:12] That's Jason.

Jason Loomis [00:00:13] That was Paul. And this is F-Sides. The Cyber Humanity podcast.

Paul Love [00:00:20] Where we focus on the human side of cybersecurity. So we have a really exciting show for our listeners today. Jason.

Jason Loomis [00:00:27] This is going to be a good one, Paul. Today we're going to talk about why presentation is everything.

Paul Love [00:00:34] And you know, we in another podcast, we talk about storytelling, which is important, right? You have to have a great story and we'll talk more about that. But the ability to tell your story is equally important and to tell it effectively is something that early in my career I did not understand besides storytelling, right? I thought data was storytelling, but then I thought, okay, well now I have a great story. But then I wasn't able to present it effectively when I when I was starting out in my career and the presentation, getting the information across is so important. And, you know, I was so frustrated early in my career because, you know, I thought I had the story down and then I'd present just this wall of text, right, with no graphics. And it would be, let's see how small of a font I can get on this on this PowerPoint and get as much data as I can. And I was always walking out of meetings, frustrated, wondering why I couldn't get the point across.

Jason Loomis [00:01:26] I get so frustrated being power pointed to death with that, that the data is the medium. PowerPoint becomes a medium for data, and it absolutely should not be. It's a it's meant to be a medium for presentation. Yeah, I completely agree. In fact, it really speaks to our theme that we have for our podcast, which is, you know, moving the elephant, right? And it's about the writer, the path and the elephant. And the writer represents the logic of human behavior. Our elephant is the human emotion. What we're really trying to focus on with the cybersecurity podcast and the path is process. And when you're trying to effect change in people, we need all three of those, right? You need the writer in the path and the elephant to move in harmony, because the writer that spreadsheet isn't going to move a 6000 ton elephant. That that is that elephant is going to move in. It's emotion. Right. And that's what presentations are really meant. Think about the way TED talks are written and produced and presented. They don't, you know, kill you with the PowerPoint data. They in fact, I don't know if they even have slides. Maybe they do a couple, but they're very visual. And the presentation itself is where you really want to get the data.

Paul Love [00:02:29] Well, if you think about it, like human beings have been telling stories for thousands of years verbally. Right, and then in written form. But, you know, the stories that really compelled people weren't the ones that were just pure facts. So think of like if you're reading, you know, a book and all it talked about was the details like a Hemingway write greater details. But imagine if the book was just a whole bunch of details written on a page in no particular form or whatnot. That's not a very interesting, compelling thing to read. And, you know, making sure that you present it, put that facts in where they matter, but integrate that into the story. And one thing that really changed how I thought about presentations was an agreed author. Her name is Nancy Duarte and she wrote a book called Slideology and Resonate. And those really taught me like, for instance, I put graphics on a slide and in her book she actually said if you have the like if you have a person in the slide in the running away from what you're presenting, that's actually subconsciously making people think that's a bad thing to present. So it's like those subtle nuances in telling the story and presenting is really, really interesting.

Jason Loomis [00:03:34] Yeah. I've had more than a few consulting engagements that I came in and basically can tell told the same. Had the same data. We all know what cyber security, what the basic controls that are required to to reduce risk. It's not like there's magic to it. But I've had more than a few consulting engagements where the problem was the previous person or the previous company or the previous team didn't know how to tell the story.

Paul Love [00:04:01] Mm hmm. Yeah. Like how many sales how many sales presentations been and where they're not even, you know, they're presenting just random stuff. They clearly have not listened to what your needs are or, you know, just a wall of text about how great their product is. But they don't show you like how to use the product. Right? That doesn't resonate with people.

Jason Loomis [00:04:20] Yeah, I completely agree. I've if I if I have another salesperson, just give me a download of the data. It's I get, I get frustrated.

Paul Love [00:04:29] Yeah. So I think what Krislam, I hope, I'm hoping that we have a great conversation because she she has a lot of end up knowledge, right, where the books that I've read are just scratching the surface. But somebody who studies this is going to be super fascinating because, you know, it's really one of the most important things that we do as leaders, right? We're always selling right. We're selling to our peers, selling tour manager, selling to our staff, right on the value of the program. And having somebody who really knows how to, you know, giving some tips on how to share that is going to be super tremendous because I think a lot of security people don't think they're in sales. Right. We're all in sales.

Jason Loomis [00:05:08] Yes. And and I'll point out, you just spilled the beans and shared who our guest is.

Paul Love [00:05:12] Oh, sorry. No, that's okay.

Jason Loomis [00:05:15] You're we're new at this, but next time we want to hold a little more suspense and kind of keep it secret of who we're having on. But we'll get to we'll get to Krislam in a minute when we when we kind of read her bio and explain why what she's doing here and why she's talking about presentation is everything. I'll tell you from my experience. But another experience I've had, too, that I found is why presentation.is everything. The presentation has gotten me jobs. I'm not joking that it came down to a PowerPoint that got me a full time position because I was able to tell the story in the way that they needed to hear. Kind of tying back to that, you know, I've done consulting engagements where it's just a matter of, you know, how you got to tell the story to your audience that was so important that it, you know, resulted in full time employment. So if anyone says PowerPoint skills, you don't need to worry about those or you think, oh, I'm just going to put the data in there, it absolutely can't be further from the truth, in my opinion.

Paul Love [00:06:08] Yeah, you know, just beyond PowerPoint too. I mean, PowerPoints absolutely important, but the skills that you learn and how to do an effective presentation apply to everything. Like, you know, after reading some of the books on presentation, I actually I actually do emails differently, right? And I do other things that I when I'm giving out information in a different way because it's totally conditioned how I think about conveying a message and communicating effectively. And you'll see that it goes well beyond PowerPoint. PowerPoint. So and a common medium that we all use. And if you get that right, it can start to go to other things you do, like Jason, like you just say getting a job like, you know, even a resume, right, is a presentation of information. People often just think, let me cram as much detail in as I can, you know, when or I've seen horrible ones where it's just like they don't give me enough information. Right? So that that balance is incredibly important.

Jason Loomis [00:07:04] Yeah. You just hit on something I've had recent experience with is, you know, the difference between a cybersecurity engineer, say, and a cybersecurity leader can be as simple as what story are you telling? So I have you know, I'll have engineers, architects working for me that will overload the data to say, this is why we need to do this. Look, I'm saving this much cost. If I move this over here and then I take C plus D equals A and, you know, throw all this math at it. And I'm like, you know, you really need to simplify the story. We can if we do a if we do this because of this, we can do this. I mean, it's as simple as that and literally would take, you know, one PowerPoint slide to present to executives. Because in my experience, especially when you're asking for things executives do not like, that it's much easier to get by with less data than it is more data. And another good, you know, I'll throw out my tip and Krisel might already come up with this do in her tips, but data belongs in appendix if you need data in a PowerPoint and sometimes you do. There are the executives that are used to this have become such a norm too. I think this is a failure of of the use of PowerPoint is that it is now almost a norm in a lot of organizations that the data has to be in the PowerPoint. And when some executives don't see that data, they wait. Where's the data? How come I can't? Why can I read this while you're presenting, then? My recommendation for that balance of how you can balance that be like, Well, my executive wants it in there, put it in the appendix, tell the story first in your presentation of what you're going to present to and for the supporting data, you can throw it into the slides later on in the appendix.

Paul Love [00:08:36] That might be a great future podcast. Jason is how to get your data into a presentation without putting it in the presentation because there are methods and ways to do things like that, like have it as a take away and so forth. Because you're right, some people feel like they haven't you haven't presented it fully and you give them the data. So these are good things to to know as a leader, especially when you get into management, is that you do have to address your audience with your presentation and there are methods to do it. But, you know, the the visuals and the presentation, you know, you you have to have your data there, but you can't have the data be the star of the the story all the time. Right. It needs to you need to tell the background of it, for instance, you know, so when I.

Jason Loomis [00:09:24] Have a great title for that, seeing because I don't have an appendix anymore, it's how to, how to use your appendix without having it kill you.

Paul Love [00:09:31] You know. Perfect.

Jason Loomis [00:09:33] Great. Well, let's let's get to our guest. This next guest is my invite and and to let our tens of tens of listeners out there know just a little more about the guest. No, hold.

Paul Love [00:09:43] On, Jason. You said tens of tens. Actually, my my dogs are listening. And when I'm driving down the road, I'm going to be, you know, blasting out the podcast. So everybody on my drive is going to hear so I can ten I think we can add everybody on the highways in California to our list of listeners now because I.

Jason Loomis [00:10:02] Know are here in the Pacific that data is valid, Paul I'll give you the dogs already does. And we're at 12 listeners I'll give you the dogs. That's 12 is great. It's a dozen eggs. That that's perfect.

Paul Love [00:10:12] All right. Well, the more listeners a better we're trying we're getting out there.

Jason Loomis [00:10:14] So absolutely. We're at 12. Okay. Remember that. So this guest specializes in branding, storytelling, and presentation design and strategy. They're passionate about education, community building, and PowerPoint. Yes. Yes, you heard that right. Passionate about PowerPoint. That's a good I know what they call that alliteration. Passionate about PowerPoint. Her educational background includes an associate of arts and graphic design and a Bachelor of Science in Business Management from FIDM. Yes, I thought FIDM, it is actually a very popular acronym. A later episode, we'll talk about how much acronyms can suck, but FIDM is the Fashion Institute of Design and merchandizing. If you work in the fashion industry, you know what fitting means here in Los Angeles, actually? So she has her bachelor's degree from there. She's currently even attending USC. I hope I don't have to spell out that acronym, but it is for University of Southern California to get her master's degree in integrated design, business and technology. Paul, I thought you had a some long-winded master degree titles, but I think I think she wins on this one. It's a good one. All right, everybody, please welcome Krislam Chin.

Krislam Chin [00:11:22] Hi.

Jason Loomis [00:11:24] I'm glad to have you.

Krislam Chin [00:11:26] Thank you for having me.

Jason Loomis [00:11:28] Awesome. So I think I'm going to start by just giving a little more introduction of how what you're doing. What what would you what are you doing on our show? Islam is my is my presentation guru. I have learned everything about how to present when it comes to multimedia from Krislam Chin. She I've been working with her for eight or nine years and it's absolutely amazing when you get someone who really understands storytelling like she does. So I when I thought of, hey, we want to talk about how important storytelling is to move the elephant and to get people's emotions. I immediately jumped to KRS-One.

Krislam Chin [00:12:07] I am so on. I'm I'm like blushing now. I mean and I think it's a two way. It's it's mutual because what makes us work so well together is because you also find the value in creating great presentations like you will you will like narrow in on every single slide and then zoom back out and always strive to make sure that you have a great story. And you and we, you know, we brainstorm all the time and it's it wouldn't work without you either. So that's what I'm trying to say.

Jason Loomis [00:12:45] Yeah, it's the story. It's all, you know, an analogy I've heard once used is is think of it like a children's book. And it's a good way that I think of PowerPoint presentations is that yeah I have the copy the words of the children's book but I can't draw, I can't present, visualize what that means. And that's where I feel that relationship works with good graphic design is what's the story I'm trying to tell visually? Just like a children's book. You're not going to overload the kid with sentences and words and data. You're going to graphically represent the story that you're trying to tell.

Krislam Chin [00:13:16] Yeah.

Jason Loomis [00:13:17] Yeah. So, Krislam, you you initially taught me the phrase presentation is everything. Why is that curriculum? Why is presentation everything?

Krislam Chin [00:13:27] I believe that presentation, I mean, to me is everything because it's a beautiful intersection between storytelling, design and public speaking. And when it's done really well, as you you both mentioned it, when it's done well, it can be incredibly impactful. And if it's not done well, that is also negatively impactful. Right? Like, you know, when you've been in a presentation that's just kind of taking a little too long or it's kind of dragging. So, you know, when you're in a good presentation, when you're a part of a good presentation and when you're part of a not so great presentation. So that's why it is everything to me. And like you said also previously, it's it's gotten you jobs, it's given you opportunities. It it really shows who you are professionally. And presentation doesn't even have to be just PowerPoints. It like, like Paul said, it could be a resume that is a presentation of who you are as a person. And if you do that well, then it leaves an impact.

Jason Loomis [00:14:31] How did you present? How did you get into it? Like how did you realize that this is your calling and this is what you're going to do? What was was there an evolution? Was it since you were two years old, you were like drawing sketches and was like, Oh, this is what I'm going to do, how to work out.

Krislam Chin [00:14:43] I was drawing PowerPoint. Sketching. No, it actually came to me. Very like I was not expecting to ever be in this in this field because when I was in school, I was learning how to do graphic design branding. It was in my first job as a in a market research firm where we were taking complex qualitative and quantitative data and, and trying to create a story with. Obviously, we were working with the people that we're working with on the story, but I was finding that like, oh my gosh, like PowerPoint is actually not that awful, right? It's like. Like, my, my. The workshop that I have is called PowerPoint is not the enemy. Because oftentimes people think like, oh, my God, like a PowerPoint. Like, that sucks. Like, it's so boring. It's so it's like old school. But if you if you look at PowerPoint really as the vehicle of your story and not the tool that's going to tell your story, that sort of changes that lens and it becomes more fun to work with. And so that's a long winded answer of it was an evolution. It started with just designing PowerPoints and then moving into another role where I was supporting executives in their presentations. And I'm here now.

Paul Love [00:16:01] Well, Crystal, that's a very fascinating point that you just made, is that, you know, PowerPoint is just a vehicle for the presentation. And oftentimes, you know, I've I've done this before where you'll say, okay, I need to present something, you'll pop open PowerPoint and you'll start putting stuff in PowerPoint versus what I think I just heard you say is, no, don't start with PowerPoint. Start with, you know, what are you trying to convey? Like, can you go a little more into that? Because that is such a subtle nuance, but so critically important.

Krislam Chin [00:16:33] Yeah. I always encourage my clients and also when I give the workshops like a design project, we don't go straight to the computer. We're not in Adobe, we're not designing things right away. Take a step back, write it all out. I always say start with a brain dump, so just throw spaghetti on the wall. What is it that you want to talk about and just put it all out? And then when you take a step back, you'll start to see those little like modules of like your story coming to life, and then you can actually start moving things around and saying like, You know what, I actually want to put this in the beginning, I want to put this at the end, but starting out with just a piece of paper or just a blank Microsoft Word and just throwing your story out is the best way to start.

Paul Love [00:17:17] Oh, that's fascinating, because, I mean, I think of an analogy to that. It's like, you know, if you want to go on a trip, you don't hop in the car and start driving and then decide where you want to go, right? You think about it ahead of time, say, hey, you know, do I need to bring food with me? You know, you need to plan some things out and then you hop in the car. I think a lot of us were hopping in the car and starting to drive. Like, you know, what you just said is, I think, absolutely fascinating. So, you know, I've had some influences for my presentations. You know, I had mentioned Nancy Duarte. And, you know, I'm a big Seth Godin fan who, you know, changes how I think about things. Who and what were some of your influences to get into this field of job and work? And who who do you look at and say, okay, this is you know, this is the where I want to be and how I want to kind of progress.

Krislam Chin [00:18:05] I will say that I have a lot of influences in both the spaces of presentation design. So your Nancy Daurte's of the world your you mentioned Seth. What was his name?

Paul Love [00:18:14] Seth Godin. G-O-D-I-N.

Krislam Chin [00:18:16] Seth Godin, yeah. So people and lots of TEDx speakers. I love watching TED talks because to Jason's point, it's like they don't they don't rely on their presentations like, you know, that they came prepared for that talk. So anyone who has given a great presentation, I've also looked up to them. I also looked up to graphic designers in general. So the Michael Bierut, the Paul Rands of the world, they're really wonderful at distilling an idea into design. Right. And so, you know, as I mentioned, it is like a bridge between design and that storytelling. And so how do you find that those happy mediums.

Jason Loomis [00:18:54] Want to bring up cybersecurity in this? Because it's and it is it's key to me is like I want to add in why presentation is everything especially for cybersecurity, because cybersecurity is one of those fields where people don't expect it and it's almost it's almost a non norm. It's not a norm to have good presentations in cybersecurity because it's so analytical and so data based and so metrics driven and so framework focused and so technical that you get lost in that technical noise. And it's my opinion that as a cybersecurity practitioner, or even if you're just trying to work with cybersecurity, trying to present actually is more of the practitioner you you will differentiate yourself when you tell good stories, when you're trying to get budget for that next project. How you tell that story absolutely is going to get you way further than the metrics in the data. So for me, cybersecurity, the reason why I focus on it so much is because it's not focused on I try to balance it out. Whereas, you know, I might argue and Krislam can probably argue back, well, that's not the case either. I imagine in my head that our marketing team has these amazing power points that the that they present to each other when they're talking about their strategy and they're talking to the business. And I just imagine because they know marketing in PowerPoint that they do that is probably not true. But I know in cybersecurity it's almost the exact opposite. In general.

Krislam Chin [00:20:17] It really is taking that story. And and also something that, you know, some of both of you have touched on is also knowing your audience. I think that what makes a very successful presentation is a three part. And one of those is knowing your audience and not all audiences are created equal. So you could be pitching to your leaders for a budget, but if you're talking to someone else about your budget, they might not be looking through that same lens. And so knowing your audience is incredibly important. And I think, you know, to marketing, that's why it's so successful in marketing because they know who they're talking to.

Paul Love [00:20:54] Well, and that's interesting, knowing your audience, it was a concept I heard often as I was coming up, and I never quite understood it earlier in my career. Like, well, my audience is people, right? Like, you know, it's I. And then as I as I progressed in my career, I started to see, wait a minute, a, a manager is going to think about different things than an engineer. So can you do you have any tips that you can share on how to how to get to know your audience and what their needs are? And, you know, some of the things that you use. And if if you could do a cybersecurity, great. But, you know, just in general, you know some tips that. You might have.

Krislam Chin [00:21:33] Well, I'll use the projects that I work on with Jason as an example. So I am typically the target audience, someone who I mean, the work that we work on together, the budget, stuff like that. So I'm not that audience. But in terms of the the audience, who's going to be engaging with the work about cybersecurity and the tips and tricks that he shares? I always put myself in that lens of I'm someone who doesn't know cybersecurity, so I have to ask Jason to always stay surface level for me, right? Because while there's all of these great you know, I've seen the work that he does and I get even I get a little lost. I like all the stuff that he like all the content that he shares and they're all fascinating. And that's fascinating to me because I get to sit with it. But someone who is sitting in a town hall who like someone in the marketing team who's sitting in this town hall listening to Jason talk about fishing for the first time, it's like, how do you say service level, right? And so knowing who you're going to be talking to and just giving yourself that moment to take a step back, it's how I always like to think of it as different levels, right? Like if you are someone who is new, you want to say it's pretty surface level. If you want to like if he's talking to you, likely going to be talking to you about all the the the details of cybersecurity. And sorry to your to answer your question, how do you do that? I would just ask questions. I would sit with the potential audience members. So Jason does that a lot with me as well. Like he'll run something by me and he sees me scratching my head. It's like, okay, I have to I have to bring it back a little bit more because. Because I get it.

Paul Love [00:23:22] Yeah. So. So what I'm hearing is it doesn't have to be a complicated. Go interview them or go do some, you know, early intel unless you're specifically targeting specific, you know, teams or individuals for your message. But more of a really keeping it simple is, you know, I think a key thing, right. Like, you know, I always say don't use acronyms. Right. Acronyms are the language of exclusion. Right. And while they're shortcuts, sometimes they don't pull people in. So, you know, what I'm hearing is, you know, if you keep it simple, you can always dove into more information versus, you know, if you go super complex, you're going to lose people right off the bat.

Krislam Chin [00:24:02] Yeah. And there is a certain that's a muscle that we have to continue to exercise and flex. Right. The micro and macro lens of something that is something that I learned in this field that I have to consistently work on because I could narrow in on something and then I'll present it to someone and they're like completely out of context. They have no idea what that is. And so with presentation and storytelling, there is sort of this hand-holding. You want to take them on a journey and you want to make sure that the audience is always with you. Metaphors are a really great way to make things relatable to your audience. So, for example, some things that I work on with Jason and he's really big on metaphors is using movie references. Even though I don't get them because I'm not a movie buff, that's a big.

Jason Loomis [00:24:54] Difference. She's very young.

Paul Love [00:24:57] And very old.

Krislam Chin [00:24:58] I also just like, just don't watch film. But the way that you bring it back to to movie references or even, you know, when we talk about iconography in illustration, you know, there was this one project that we worked on together where you share the multiple channels and vulnerabilities that a hacker can use or like, you know, parts that a hacker can use to get into your network. And you took I think there was one thing that really resonated with me was like it was like four icons and it was the four different ways that a hacker can get in. And I'm like, I did not know that you could that a hacker could run a program that will generate many, many different passwords until it finally gets the one right. And so that resonated with me because I got to see what that looks like as an illustration. And now I'm really careful with my passwords.

Jason Loomis [00:25:53] Great at work. Yeah. Analogy and metaphors is part of that presentation magic that you really need. And I'm speaking to the audience not to use them, but that our audience should really take into account when you're building your presentations as they are so powerful, especially for cybersecurity, that deals with very complex, very technical stuff every day. And you need to simplify it to your audience and assume the lowest common denominator in the audience, which, if any of you have ever dealt with an executive, is sometimes like a fifth grader. You want to explain it like a fifth grader can understand it. And the use of analogies was great for that recently. Probably one of my favorite analogies. I worked with Krislam Chin when I was trying to explain cloud misconfiguration. All right there. I don't even know if prism as my you know she said the test case. Does Google understand that? No, I don't. But everyone in cybersecurity probably does understand what cloud misconfiguration means. So a great analogy. In fact, I never presented the words cloud misconfiguration when I was talking about it. I presented a picture of a guy named, Yevgeny Kafelnikov. And he's a world tennis player that is world renowned for having the unfortunate distinction of having the most unforced errors in a grand slam tournament. I want to explain what an unforced error is. It's oh, it's that tennis when you make a mistake, that's what cloud misconfiguration is. It's you shooting yourself in your own foot, leaving stuff open, leaving your stuff unprotected. And it was just a great analogy and way to tell the story. In fact, my entire deck was just simply a picture of a tennis court. Krislam built it for me. A picture of a tennis court and a picture of Yevgeny Kafelnikov. But everyone in the audience from that point now understands what cloud misconfiguration means is a risk.

Krislam Chin [00:27:31] And I think what was very successful about that particular slide as well is that you didn't put any copy on that slide.

Jason Loomis [00:27:38] Copy being text, right? There was no text.

Krislam Chin [00:27:40] There was no there was no text on there. And you deliver that story. And I that is what I feel is a very successful part of presentations is when you are not leaning on your presence. So something I wanted to share also is that what makes a successful presentation is I like to think of it as Batman and Robin. So here's a movie reference for you. I know that.

Paul Love [00:28:04] One. Oh, wait, who is Batman?

Krislam Chin [00:28:06] And so I think presentations as, you know, Batman and Robin. So you're Batman and Robin is your sidekick and so your presentations are your sidekick. And the whole point is that you're the storyteller. So like your tennis slide, you didn't depend on that. So you weren't looking at it, you weren't reading off of it. You just had it as supplemental material to support your story.

Jason Loomis [00:28:33] Yeah, absolutely. In my opinion, that's that's what I and that's what I learned from Chris Lim is the the the way the nature of PowerPoint shouldn't be, what people are focused on. In fact, how many meetings do you read ahead when someone's presenting because they put up a paragraph of data that you're supposed to read through and all they're doing is reading the data to you. Those are, to me, the worst and the least impactful presentations you can have.

Krislam Chin [00:28:55] And people, when they see a wall of text, they immediately just disengage.

Jason Loomis [00:28:59] What are some of your go tool tools? Go to tools that you use in your job and you might recommend people like me. What are some of the tools that you use?

Krislam Chin [00:29:08] I am a huge I mean, obviously we know that I love PowerPoint, Google Slides, keynotes, any one of those programs that really, you know, supports presentations when you're working with icons like iconography, I highly recommend the noun project dot com. That's where you can grab some icons for free, of course, if you have a membership even better. Otherwise you have to credit the illustrator. Illustrator. Yeah, I love that project too. There is also websites that you can use unsplash.com to grab really beautiful high res imagery. You would also have to credit the photographer, but those are really great tools to grab any illustrations and photos. I also love to just, you know, it's too bad that I can't show you all, but I love when I'm thinking about a story. I like to put a butcher paper on my wall and just start writing and then taking a step back. So really one of the tools is just taking a step back and looking at your overall story.

Jason Loomis [00:30:18] That's great. Yeah, that's those are some great tips. In fact, ones that I don't know if you've shared with me before, I'm a little upset, but I wrote them down.

Krislam Chin [00:30:27] One building it and building it.

Jason Loomis [00:30:31] Because this has been this has been fantastic having you on. In each of our episodes, we try to close out with an exercise called Start, Stop, Continue, which is a way to kind of impart some advice to our cybersecurity brothers and sisters out there, if you could. The question to you is going to be, if you could ask cybersecurity and that's the cybersecurity in your life, you could be dating them and be really close because you work for cybersecurity. You could just happen to do it on the periphery because you work with me. Or it could be something of you just hear of in your world. But from your perspective, if you could ask the cybersecurity in your life to start doing something, stop doing something, and continue doing something, what would those be?

Krislam Chin [00:31:17] Starting. So I would say to start creating more engaging material for your audience. And perhaps I am biased, but I've always enjoyed the work that you've delivered. When we used to work together and I would always open your emails and engage with them and read them because it was fun and relatable. So I would say to start doing that and you don't have to hire me, but I get into and get into, you know, like think about the tools that the Nancy Duarte's of the world and just go out there and research on how to give a great presentation and trying to find that harmony between story design and delivery. And then for a startup kind of speaking to the starting one, but for stopping like stop defaulting to boring corporate material that is meant to scare your audience, right? Of course. Of course. Cybersecurity is a place that is a little scary because of all of the vulnerabilities and people getting impacted by those. And I don't want to take away the weight from that. But as I mentioned earlier, it's like just make it more engaging and educational and impactful and relatable.

Jason Loomis [00:32:28] That's great. That's a great that's a great stop to right now for the for the last one, what do you want cybersecurity to continue doing?

Krislam Chin [00:32:36] So if we're continuing, people in cybersecurity are doing the work that needs to be done in that as we become more technology dependent in our world, it's so very important to understand how to keep ourselves safe from any sort of, you know, hackers or anything. And people often take that for granted, like you mentioned in all of your presentations, like, oh, it won't happen to me. It only happens to, you know, the important people of the world. But like there are people who get their identity stolen, money stolen from their banks, all that stuff, because they could have prevented that from just having a stronger password or just being aware of the ways that you can be vulnerable, whether I mean, we're all cloud based these days. And so like, how do you protect that? How do you protect yourself and your family?

Jason Loomis [00:33:25] Awesome. Those were great criticism. Well, we I think we temporarily lost Paul and are having some technical difficulties on his side. But on behalf of him and I, both of us, thank you so much for being on for this. This was fantastic. And people everyone out there for cybersecurity, please remember presentation. Absolutely is everything. You can find more information about Krislam on our home page on f sides dot com. Yes, she is a gun for hire. So if you are interested. Absolutely. I you won't hear us recommending companies or brands, but I absolutely can recommend Krislam if you want any tips and any information and help with designing your next presentation.

Krislam Chin [00:34:02] Thank you. Thank you for having me.